Randy Knight recording

Tonight we chatted with Randy Knight, author of a calc-based intro physics text and an algebra-based one. We discussed what it means to base your text in Physics Education Research, things to do with student misconceptions, expectations of HS students, and more. Oh, and we also played an awesome whiteboard game or two. 

Here’s the recording link.

Don’t forget next week when we’ll talk with Delores Gende, a HS physics teacher very involved with the AP program.

SBG conversation

This morning (Saturday, 7/9/2011) there was a conversation about Standards-Based Grading with physics teachers at the #physicsmtg going on in Delaware right now. A few of us joined remotely as well.

Here’s the recording.

And here’s the transcript of the chat:

Joined on July 9, 2011 at 10:03 AM

Me: talking about the need for a zero on the scale

Me: scale for a problem…

Becca Howell: I can hear that there is talking, but I cannot understand

JennHaney: I’m having a hard time too

Moderator: not loud enough or muddled?

Becca Howell: muddled

Moderator: I can make it out most of the time

Becca Howell: okay

Becca Howell: you sound great

Moderator: yeah, probably

Becca Howell: yep

Becca Howell: <— feeling like a leech that caused a bunch of problems for you guys today!

Moderator: no prob, take your time. Yo-gi-oh is on so my wild boys are tame for the moment

Becca Howell: but thanks for  including us!

JennHaney: yeah, thanks so much!

Becca Howell: my girl is watching Tom and Jerry

Moderator: old school

JennHaney: I’m sorry, ask again?

JennHaney: I

Me: how familiar are you with SBG?

Brian Carpenter: Sorry that you all have to stare at me.

Becca Howell: HAD to give ONE assessment last year in which each question was alligned to a state standard

Moderator: I’ve used it for one class only (just this past semester)

JennHaney: I’ve been following Frank and Sean Cornally and am working on implementing this coming year.

Becca Howell: yes

Becca Howell: and it was AP Physics and I had to use GPS

Becca Howell: yes,

Becca Howell: not really, scared to try to do it officially because of the mandatory grade reporting at school

Becca Howell: yes

JennHaney: we do too

Becca Howell: eschool plus

JennHaney: that would help me a lot to be able to sell this to my admin

Becca Howell: however, the rumor is that Fulton Co. is going to SB grade reports

Brian Carpenter: Good analogy, John.

Becca Howell: @BC LOL

Becca Howell: what do we do?

Moderator: for those joining recently: this is the group of physics teachers meeting in Delaware talking about SBG this morning. If you want to talk, hit the raise hand button so they can hit mute (feedback    sorry) and then hit the mic button on the bottom right

Moderator: oops, bottom left

Me: most of the people in the chat are here in the room.

Me: but if you aren’t please introduce yourself…

Becca Howell: for a grade on a standard, do you give either 0 or 1 or is there a range?

Becca Howell: for the score

Moderator: I use a 4-pt scale based on an old system of Frank’s

Me: manfred—where are you from?

manfred_eller: I am joining from Pennsylvania.

Me: Marcie—welcome! where are you from and what do you teach?

Me: Manfred—what do you teach?

Marcie Shea: Richmond, VA – Honors and AP Physics

Moderator: for me, 4 means “I’ll brag about it”

Moderator: why not separate out units or algebra as their own standard?

manfred_eller: AP Physics and next year we will start Physics First – so also next year 9th grade physics.

Me: http://alwaysformative.blogspot.com/

Brian Carpenter: @Andy, I actually did that this year.

Becca Howell: can you summarize what was just said?

Becca Howell: sorry

JennHaney: Does an Algebra objective really belong in a physics course?

Me: sure–we’re discussing how to handle albebgra mistakes, and whether to make it its own objective.

Me: Kelly was saying that she doesn’t use a separate algebra standard. If you don’t get albegra right on a problem, you don’t get the standard (whatever it is)

Becca Howell: what is spoken by the people to the left of the screen is hard to hear

Me: she doesn’t want student students thinking that “I don’t get the math, but I really understand the physics”

Moderator: I agree, Becca

Brian Carpenter: This is JOsh hijacking Brian: I put a writing objective in, if that makes you feel better (or worse) about assessing algebra in physics.

JennHaney: I agree with Matt

Me: Keep going unitl you get to mastery.

Moderator (john2): hold on andy

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): no prob

JennHaney: list the letters again for me please

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): I think they mean A-F

Becca Howell: In my experience as an AP Reader, most often algebra is not penalized

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): thanks

Becca Howell: algebra is very important, but setting up the problem or describing the method used is so much more important

Becca Howell: i doubt I could “sell” an algebra standard to my admin

Moderator (john2): becca—yes—setting up problem can be embedded in a standard—drawing diagrams, etc.

Brian Carpenter: @becca Would you have problem with a calc standard for an advanced physics class?

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): if you’re on a small screen, Frank is adding to the whiteboard so move your video window if you can’t see it

Moderator (john2): I’m going to post a list of kellys standards

Becca Howell: I like Frank’s scale, reminds me of an AP score (if you haven’t noticed I’m sort of a CB/AP junkie)

Brian Carpenter: Key point to the algebra conversation – Kelly’s A standards are conceptual and require no algebra.

Becca Howell: in this sbg model, do you give multiple types of assessments? are they all “weighted” equally?

Becca Howell: so an answer that is “reasonable” needs to be given?

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): what if they set it up and say “it’s n equations and n unknowns so the physics is done but I’m stuck on the algebra”?

Moderator (john2): Kelly’s revised honor’s standards: http://t.co/kQpwGH2

Becca Howell: on an AP rubric, they’d mostlikely get full credit

Brian Carpenter: @Becca Even if the algebra mistake occurred on part a and there are three more parts?

Becca Howell: @BC yes, ap rubrics are beautiful

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): warning: Yu-gi-oh is over and it’s threatening rain so I might have to contribute less and yell at my boys more

Brian Carpenter: @BC lol. I really need to attend a workshop.

Becca Howell: YES! do you teach AP?

Becca Howell: I see the same algebra problems…. all the time

Brian Carpenter: AP C: Mechanics

Becca Howell: @person speaking: I have number dyslexia – I feel for the kid

Becca Howell: got it

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): I was just going to say that

Marcie Shea: @Frank – Looking at your grading system, do you do your standards cummulative through the year or each marking period is separate

Becca Howell: @Frank, how did you sell this to your admin?

Frank Noschese: My quarter grades mark progress to date

Becca Howell: is Brian(?) in public or private?

Moderator (john2): brian is private school

Moderator (john2): Frank is public

Becca Howell: lucky duck

Moderator (john2): Rosalyn is public school

Moderator (john2): But lots of public teachers use it—Shawn Cornally at Think Thank Thunk is huge advocate

Moderator (john2): Dan Meyer, Jason Byuell, etc.

Frank Noschese: To sell to admins, I showed them an ASCD article called 7 reasons for standards-based grading and A different way to grade science. Links to those docs are in my SBG bookmarks: http://bit.ly/SBGlinks

Moderator (john2): Can post links if you want and don’t know these people….

Becca Howell: we’ve had 3 different principals in three years – it is a mess – each has their own agenda, etc

Brian Carpenter: Marzano’s book: http://goo.gl/LMHe4

Becca Howell: was randomly kicked out

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): becca, you missed it. They all stripped naked and ran around the table

Becca Howell: aw crap!

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): Frank, you can add a new white board now by hitting the bottom right button next to the white board (you’re a moderator now)

Marcie Shea: I tuned in because I am really interested in SBG, but the more I read about sbg and learn about it the more overwhelmed I feel with the paperwork, record-keeping, etc required. Did you find it to be a tough transition?

Becca Howell: @MS I agree!

Brian Carpenter: @Marcie ActiveGrade. http://activegrade.com/

Moderator (john2): That’s Rosalyn—she teaches at a public school in philadelphia

JennHaney: I like Sam Shah’s requirements for emailing requests for reassessment

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): samjshah has a great email application for reassessment

Moderator (john2): @Jenn, and make that a google form and it’s even better.

JennHaney: agreed

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): http://samjshah.com/2011/06/15/to-reassess-or-how-to-make-more-work-for-me/

JennHaney: That’s my plan for next year

Marcie Shea: What about the kid who shows mastery early in the unit and then doesn’t do anything for the rest of the unit?  How does that play into the grading scheme?

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): yeah, Marcie, I have students who avoid reassessments. Need to figure out more ways to have “forced” reassessment

Becca Howell: @ John, all the names and links you sent are all gone     – can you email them or post them somewhere?)

Harvey Johnson 1: We regularly assess (via quizzes, etc.) and if they show a lack of mastery later their most current level of mastery is most important from our perspective.

Moderator (john2): sure—We’ll pull the transcript when this is over….

Becca Howell: <— newbie

Becca Howell: thanks

Moderator (john2): and post it somewhere

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): there’s also going to be a recording link I’ll post when we’re done. It sucks that when you log in, you only see chats that come after you’re in

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): welcome Rhett

Rhett: thanks

Becca Howell: I’m still trying to grasp this (without reading anything before hand)… So, could you give a % grade for each standard? That way if they do well on one, but then stop working, their % would go down???

Moderator (john2): typical class mght have 40 standards, so if you choose to weight equally and average, then 2.5%?

Moderator (john2): but most don’t do that.

Moderator (john2): Mark and Kelly classify standards 2 ways—lower level (must pass all to pass class), higher level (must pass all of those to be in range for A).

Moderator (john2): Grades are conjuctive…looking for link

Becca Howell: while I like Frank’s grading scale, I’m certain if I tried to give grades like that I’d be burned at the stake in N.Fulton

Moderator (john2): Becca, key is kids can come back and reassess and improve grade.

Moderator (john2): so getting a 0, 1 or 2 isn’t final.

Brian Carpenter: Here’s a copy of my conjunctive grading scale http://goo.gl/lVxFz (completely stolen from Jason Buell)

Moderator (Frank Noschese): @Becca: It’s important to make sure the kids who lack core goals to come in a ressasses ASAP.

Becca Howell: got it

Becca Howell: right

Becca Howell: what is your typical class size?

Becca Howell: while I’m not apposed to working hard for my students, but the amount of grading seems overwhelming.

Moderator (Frank Noschese): I have a total load of about 85 students

Brian Carpenter: I have about 50.

Becca Howell: i had 146 this past year, similar for next year

Brian Carpenter: Roz had 120.

Marcie Shea: I’m in the same range Becca, I’m over 150 next year and it is a challenge to keep up with grading as is

Becca Howell: oh sounds like CM1

Brian Carpenter: @Becca, @Marcie. That’s so sad.

Becca Howell: @marcie all physics?

Marcie Shea: yup

Becca Howell: me too, all AP all day (with many that don’t belong in there)

Marcie Shea: there were about 85 honors physics students and no ap program when i started 3 years ago…now there are 30+ in my AP class and over 120 in honors physics

Becca Howell: what about homework?

Moderator (john2): homework is for practice.

Brian Carpenter: @Becca @Marcie One of the things about SBG is the ability of the teacher to tailor it to their environment. As you can tell, we all have different ways of doing it.

Becca Howell: any of you use Webassign?

Moderator (john2): homework isn’t graded.

Rhett: I use webassign – but it doesn’t count for a grade

Moderator (Frank Noschese): I use WA for practice.

Moderator (john2): Becca—I use webassign occasionally, but I use it only for practice.

Becca Howell: 35!!

Becca Howell: I don’t have enough lab equipment for all of them

JennHaney: I’ve modeled with 36 students

Becca Howell: Since my students have to pay for WA so if I have them pay for it, I MUST grade it…

Brian Carpenter: @Becca Grade or provide feedback?

Rhett: I agree that it sucks to make them pay – that is why I just strongly encourage it

Rhett: I am surprised how many of my students use it

Becca Howell: my school system has a county wide policy for “recovery”

Moderator (john2): @becca—what is recovery?

Becca Howell: They have to earn a grade from it if i’m going to have them pay

Becca Howell: reassessment

Moderator (Frank Noschese): @Becca – I see no difference between WA and giving kids the answers (not solutions) to textbook problems.

Becca Howell: yeah, thanks to cramster, all the book questions are online

Rhett: webassign all semester is cheaper than a tutor

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): ah cramster, such a game changer

Marcie Shea: @becca – have you looked into quest?  it is much less expensive – my department covers it

Moderator (Frank Noschese): @Becca – If you are only using WA for practice, you might consider dropping it and giving kids answers to textbook problems.

Becca Howell: I’m leaning towards no grades for homework and just quiz and assess more often

Moderator (Frank Noschese): @Becca – The Physics Classroom website also has practice problems with audio solutions

Becca Howell: what was that?

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): lon-capa

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): http://www.lon-capa.org/

Becca Howell: cool

Brian Carpenter: The Physics Classroom is awesome.

Moderator (Frank Noschese): @Becca – The selling point for WA for me (back when I graded HW) was the randomization to minimize cheating. But I don’t need that now.

Harvey Johnson 1: @Becca after reading the homework myth, kelly decided to remove homework (almost) completely. students can now use this time to prepare for reassessment. I also did this and it worked well.

Rhett: if it is graded – students will still find a way to cheat even with randomizations

Becca Howell: @Frank – that was great, but all the kids used yahoo answers or cramster

Becca Howell: I had kids with 100% WA grade and a 65% test average

Brian Carpenter: @Becca I had a similar experience and it was one of the things that drove me to try SBG

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): not surprised, Becca. motivating to learn is hard but SBG has really been eye-opening for me on that point

Becca Howell: how do those two grades on that standard combine… or do they

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): I just take the last one

Becca Howell: how does that “go over” with parents etc

Brian Carpenter: Most of us here use only the most recent score.

Brian Carpenter: Other teachers will average all the scores for a goal.

Brian Carpenter: I’ve seen weighted averages for more recent scores, power lwas, etc.

Moderator (Frank Noschese): For me, anytime you show that you allow students to make-up for any prior mistakes and you want them to be successful, they support you.

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): stole, not borrowed

Marcie Shea: and if they do nothing or don’t turn something in, do they drop to a 1?

Brian Carpenter: If you are assessing their knowledge on that, yes.

Marcie Shea: nice

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): @marcie, that’s what I was referring to earlier with “forced” reassessment

Becca Howell: I like that idea

Becca Howell: unfortunately, I’m very ignorant in the “modeling way” – apparently it hasn’t made its way to our system, but differentiation has – any of you create diff. lessons?

Moderator (john2): @becca—what do you mean by diff lessons?

Moderator (john2): @becca—we’re working on bringing modeling workshop to GA, maybe next year.

Becca Howell: creating assessments taylored to each students learning style

Harvey Johnson 1: @marcie, on most assessments student’s typically do not do nothing.  That can happen on a rare occassion, but hasn’t been a problem for me once the homework was removed.

Becca Howell: @John a modeling workshop in GA would be great

Moderator (john2): becca—not really. You can do this when you create reassessments for students, but I don’t. Diff learning is supported by SBG, since it allows studetns to learn material at diff rates.

Becca Howell: on an assessment, do you write which standard is being tested?

Becca Howell: or is it something you code separately?

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): my expt with no homework and no tests (student videos only) was really interesting. a whole lot of procrastination and then tons of (re)assessments at the end. By “forced” I need to find a way to say, you have to submit a video by x date or something.

Moderator (john2): @ becca you can do either. You do need to be a bit thoughtful in writing assessment to make sure that you are testing the standards, and not just picking cool problems.

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): I’m an expert

Rhett: if you end, then I will have to mop the floor.

Becca Howell: I’ve had experience writing q’s for the AP Physics exam, all those are coded to specific ap objectives

Marcie Shea: thanks for letting us tune in

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): http://101studiostreet.com/wordpress/

Marcie Shea: sounds like y’all are having great fun this week

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): iowa

Becca Howell: while I take no responsibility for the CRAPPY AP Exam from this year

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): why does the Mississippi go south from MN? Iowa sucks

Marcie Shea: Thanks!

Moderator (Andy Rundquist): thanks!

Becca Howell: thanks!!!!

Rhett: ok – I mop

JennHaney: Thanks so much!!